The United States of Esoterica

So let's say you lived in Seattle or some other place where the sky is almost always obscured by clouds. Imagine this conversation:

Experiencer: Yes, that night the clouds rolled away and I saw little points of light in the sky. I think they're called... stars.
Skeptic: Oh no, not another one of those hallucinations.
Experiencer: But I saw them.
Skeptic: So why can't I see them? It's night and all I see is clouds.
Experiencer: It must be very rare.
Skeptic: Yes, hallucinations are rare (low voice) for normal people heh heh.
Experiencer: But I took a photo.
Skeptic: Blurry dots of white on a black background. You call that evidence?
Experiencer: But my family saw it too.
Skeptic: All smoking the same stuff, eh?
Experiencer: But people all over the world have reported the same thing.
Skeptic: People with low intelligence are often subject to group hysteria and mass hallucinations.
Experiencer: You won't believe that this is real no matter what evidence is presented to you!
Skeptic: I only believe in what's real and since I know stars aren't real I won't believe in them.

Sound familiar? UFOs are seen rarely, observed by groups of reliable witnesses, have blurry photos taken of them and are reported all over the world. But, of course, rational folks only believe in what's real and since they already KNOW UFOs aren't real... hmm?

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"Somewhere, something incredible is waiting to be known" - Carl Sagan

The only way to make the skeptic believe is to take him or her on a plane ride above the clouds to see the stars.

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When the mob governs, man is ruled by ignorance; when the church governs, he is ruled by superstition; and when the state governs, he is ruled by fear. http://countdowntoapocalypse.com/

Not a valid argument at all. Stars are a verifiable fact. Not mentioning the big one we see every day, but the extra-solar stars, there is plenty of evidence for them, even to a person that may not be in a position to ever view them.

Manned space flight, satellites, telescopes, radio telescopes, etc. are all all capable of measuring, viewing and verifying the existence of stars.

It would be the same as if you were speaking about kangaroos. Many people have never seen one in person, but there is substantial evidence to prove they exist. Alien spacecraft on the other hand....

I'm a skeptic and I also happen to think there is almost without a doubt intelligent life outside our solar system. As to if we are being visited? I have never seen anything compelling enough to say with 100% certainty that yes there is.

Sadly, almost everything I've seen can be explained as hoaxes, misinterpretations, or just being uninformed of what is actually being witnessed. The things I've seen that can't be easily explained are also not conclusive enough to say what they are exactly.

Skepticism has been tainted by guys like James Randi and Michael Shermer who, despite being atheists, have become almost evangelical in their disbelief of EVERYTHING.

A true skeptic in neutral on a subject and needs to be convinced of it's validity through facts. There's nothing wrong with that. Shermer and Randi? They dismiss everything immediately, then mock and belittle others. They're agenda driven cursaders seeking to demean and trivialize people they don't agree with, not neutral parties seeking answers.

They're also massive tools, but that's neither here nor there.

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Modern Science: Where a crappy answer is better than no answer at all.

What's wrong with Randi & Shermer? The fact that they are able to debunk so many things that would otherwise be mysteries?

If someone can offer a odinary explanation to an extraordinary claim, then why would you choose the extraordinary over the ordinary? That is mainly what Randi does, he demonstrates ordinary explanations.

I think so many believers of the paranormal react to skeptics with hostility because because they feel their dreams have been dashed. It's sort of like a parent explaining the myth of Santa Clause to a child.

So with that analogy are you saying that sceptics create the illusion... then crush peoples dreams by showing them how they deceived them?

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“The intuitive mind is a sacred gift
and the rational mind is a faithful servant.
We have created a society that honours the servant
and has forgotten the gift.”
-- Albert Einstein --

Nice try, but no, that's not what I said at all.

I said "Sort of like.."

I said "a child" but probably should have specified "Explaining the myth of Santa Clause to someone else's child"

So with that being said, belief in mythology or accepting things on faith are usually taught by parents. Just like the Santa analogy, it is probably another reason for harsh reactions to skepticism because means the believer's parents were wrong or worse, lied.

Obviously skeptics are not the ones "creating the illusion" as you put it. But yes, they do occasionally crush dreams when the believer realizes they were wrong.

I wonder if we have enough intelligence yet to recognize aliens amoung us.Like if an ant would know we were watching it walking under our feet.

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When the mob governs, man is ruled by ignorance; when the church governs, he is ruled by superstition; and when the state governs, he is ruled by fear. http://countdowntoapocalypse.com/

Maybe we are the aliens and we don't recognize it.

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"Rare events are always unexpected, otherwise they would not occur." -Nassim Taleb

Hoagland would agree with you.

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When the mob governs, man is ruled by ignorance; when the church governs, he is ruled by superstition; and when the state governs, he is ruled by fear. http://countdowntoapocalypse.com/

Vadersp said: Stars are a verifiable fact.

You missed the point. Stars are a verifiable fact... if you accept the evidence from photographs, reliable witnesses and repeated testimony of people around the world. If you didn't see them yourself this is the only evidence you would have. As I said, does that sound familiar?

BTW, I never said UFOs are aliens. I lean toward the idea that they are secret projects run by government agencies and they've used the "alien" idea as a smokescreen ever since 1947. Oh, wait, our government would never hide important technology from it's citizens or their elected representatives. I must be wrong...

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"Somewhere, something incredible is waiting to be known" - Carl Sagan

Same as the kangaroo I spoke of.

The point is that the quantity AND quality of evidence is what supports a fact. You can prove something as fact through repeatable and verifiable measurements.

Would you accept proof of a star, or kangaroo for that matter if someone said they were contacted telepathically by it and then anally probed by it? Or by someone that could demonstrate how they get their evidence, repeat it, and do it without any "new age" or magical means?

I can take a blurry pic of a frisbee flying over my house and, if you can't tell it's a frisbee, it is technically a UFO. There is simply not enough good evidence to prove "UFO's" are anything more than fakes or explainable phenomena with poor quality evidence.

As for governments hiding technology, of course they do. It is also true that it is usually only hidden for 10-20 years. The more important fact is that not EVERYTHING is invented by governments. The space race was the single largest government sponsored boon to technology ever, and all of that tech made its way into the public domain where it was duplicated and improved.

Not if it's always cloudy.

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When the mob governs, man is ruled by ignorance; when the church governs, he is ruled by superstition; and when the state governs, he is ruled by fear. http://countdowntoapocalypse.com/

The reason I don't like debunkers (different from true skeptics) and especially Randi is that they just expect that everyone should believe their answer even though 99% of the time they have no more actual proof to support that conclusion than does someone who says it was an alien spaceship.

The owl theory is a good example. It is used for everything, aliens, mothman, the flatwoods monster and on and on. Anything strange and especially if it had big eyes was just an owl. They have no actual evidence that it was, but we are suppose to just accept that explanation.

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"So much good, so much evil. Just add water."
Markus Zusak

Satellites are above the clouds, planes can fly above the clouds, radio telescopes work through the clouds. So yes, even with clouds we can verify stars are there.