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PostPosted: Fri Feb 26, 2010 6:49 pm 
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The following is a question I posted on the Paratopia boards long ago and it generated some great debate. I would love to hear more debate on this topic.
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For the most part, when I listen to podcasts, read posts or articles about paranormal topics (especially in the UFO subculture) I get a sense that any discussion of God (Good & Evil theory in association with UFO’s) is taboo and I find that to be confusing. How can we talk about things like aliens, ghosts, flying saucers, Steven Greer, flying monkeys and ESP and in the same breath, laugh off the notion of a God as superstitious and ignorant?

We get angry when the media makes light of UFO reports or discussion, we feel marginalized when our families, friends and co-workers grin at us condescendingly if we happen to talk about the paranormal with them. But we turn around and do the same thing when someone tries to tie “God” into the topic.

When we get borderline hostile at the mere mention of God in the same breath as the paranormal, how are we acting any differently than those who ignore or mock us for discussing the things we have seen or experienced? (Indeed the things we KNOW to be true). Is it as simple as a difference between the words “know” and “believe”? Because I’m not so sure there is a big difference in these two terms when it comes to the paranormal.

I completely understand and agree with the disdain many people have for organized religion so I want to make it clear that I’m not asking about religion. I think people can believe in an intelligent designer without subscribing to dogmatic baggage that religion carries.

Like the UFO phenomenon, I believe that talking or learning about God leaves us with far more questions than answers and to me, the two things (UFO phenomenon and God) are inextricably linked. That’s why I have difficulties in understanding why so many in the UFO field can’t accept any discussion about God’s role in paranormal phenomena. Is it that a God would interfere with your current nuts and bolts belief system/s about the UFO thing? Is it that the thought or concept of an all knowing, all powerful being scares the crap out of you? Why is talk about God so Taboo in the paranormal? I’m dead curious.

I don’t want to start a religious debate or go all “evangelist” on anyone, I’m just really curious as to why people like Marzulli & Missler, et. al. are marginalized and hardly (if ever) seriously discussed on boards like these.

I’m really just interested in understanding why it’s OK to talk about a mile long, silent craft gliding over Phoenix at slow speed and not about what it might mean in terms of questions of “Good and Evil”. Why is it OK to assume or postulate that other races from other planets or dimensions might be abducting people while they sleep and scaring the holy shit out of them, but it’s not OK to question whether the entities responsible JUST MIGHT be trying to shake our faith and get us question humanity’s long held belief systems. I think it’s a bit odd (and a bit revealing) that many abductees seem to have gotten the message that THEY (the aliens, or whatever they are) are the root cause of the things that our ancestors attributed to the Gods…and not GOD?

Why is it OK to question and debate some theories while others seem off limits? Is it really easier to believe in races from alternate dimensions than in God? To me that seems backwards.

Again, I’m not trying to pick a theological fight with anyone here. I’m willing to listen objectively and I’ll entertain serious debate without having to try and sell my beliefs to you. I just don’t understand why we can’t even mention the divine when we are talking about these things. What gives?


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PostPosted: Fri Feb 26, 2010 9:30 pm 
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The devine is just an extremely advanced race on the scale between type 3 to type 5 civilizations. Why humans want to worship them is beyond me. But since we are still a type 0 and for reference, Startrek being a type 2, we are indeed probably just ants to them.

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PostPosted: Fri Feb 26, 2010 10:50 pm 
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Ummmmmm.. Okay.


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PostPosted: Sat Feb 27, 2010 1:02 am 
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Well, make an argument, and I'll listen and respond, but I don't know what you're hypothesizing here.

I personally have no problem discussing "God", but it's not usually productive because belief is not subject to reason.

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PostPosted: Sat Feb 27, 2010 11:48 am 
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OK, good points

The hypothesis I'm talking about (in a nutshell) is that there is an ongoing battle between good and evil and paranormal phenomenon (especially UFO's) are manifested by evil entities who do bad things to humans and/or try bolster the great apostacy. Some speculate that this hypothesis is supported by scriptures and by the fact that we seem to have no solid evidence of the UFO phenomenon. Again, this is the cliffs notes version.

To answer your other comment/point. I agree, that generally discussing a beliefe system can often be fruitless but I would argue that the UFO/paranormal phenomenon is (without solid evidence in hand) a belief system as well. And solid evidence for any of the paranormal is lacking.

The over arching point is that we discuss the paranormal and many people want answers but when a person tries to explain interject the possibility of a "God" answer (for lack of a better term), he or she gets slammed. I don't care to debate the causes for the paranormal (god or ghosts or aliens or whatever), I want to know your thoughts on why on one hand we think it's OK to assume that people from other dimensions are flying mile long crafts over phoenix arizona but it's not OK to even discuss the fact that those "aliens" may be a manifestation of something else alltogether. Hopefull that makes sense.

Again, I'm trying to keep the obvious religious overtones out of this because I would catch hell (so to speak) if I were to get to graphic in introducing the topic. I guess, another way to ask the question is this: Why is Lynn Marzulli laughed at but others who talk about UFO's taken seriously (within the field)?












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PostPosted: Sun Feb 28, 2010 12:41 am 
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Hoagland-esque

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bmadccp wrote:
OK, good points

The hypothesis I'm talking about (in a nutshell) is that there is an ongoing battle between good and evil and paranormal phenomenon (especially UFO's) are manifested by evil entities who do bad things to humans and/or try bolster the great apostacy.


Well, unlike (I would guess) most people I do believe in good and evil as actual things, and not abstract concepts. And I'm sure some paranormal events are manifestations of that. But I'm not sure UFOs are the best example. UFOs usually just go about their business, disregarding humans, like we're insignificant to their purpose.

bmadccp wrote:
Some speculate that this hypothesis is supported by scriptures and by the fact that we seem to have no solid evidence of the UFO phenomenon. Again, this is the cliffs notes version.


The "supported by scriptures" part is where you lose people, IMO. That sort of thing carries weight inside a church, but not anywhere else. And it implies that you've already got a belief matrix into which you're trying to cram the UFO phenomenon.

Could UFOs be some kind of "spiritual" phenomenon? Sure, but like any other neat little pigeonhole people try to put them in, they sorta fit, but not quite. There's definitely a consciousness connection that goes beyond "nuts and bolts", so the spirituality aspect is a legit topic of discussion, IMO.

But in my experience, religious people don't really want open-minded discussion. They just seek to incorporate things into their preexisting belief system. So it's hardly surprising that religious people have a hard time finding non-religious people to engage in their brand of dialogue.

bmadccp wrote:
I would argue that the UFO/paranormal phenomenon is (without solid evidence in hand) a belief system as well. And solid evidence for any of the paranormal is lacking.


That's true to some extent, but most "scientific" UFOlogists tend to avoid conclusions and simply collect evidence that there is something weird going on. Of course there are plenty of crackpots too, who believe all kinds of crap (which could be true, who knows; the Universe is a weird, freaky place).

bmadccp wrote:
The over arching point is that we discuss the paranormal and many people want answers but when a person tries to explain interject the possibility of a "God" answer (for lack of a better term), he or she gets slammed.


Because a "God" answer is a non-answer. It removes the issue from the realm of reasonable discussion into one of belief. If "God" did it, there's nothing to investigate. We may as well shut our minds down and not use our (God-given) critical thinking skills. But on the off chance the phenomenon has another explanation, and is something we can gain knowledge and understanding from studying, I think it's worth pursuing non-"God" hypotheses.

bmadccp wrote:
I don't care to debate the causes for the paranormal (god or ghosts or aliens or whatever), I want to know your thoughts on why on one hand we think it's OK to assume that people from other dimensions are flying mile long crafts over phoenix arizona but it's not OK to even discuss the fact that those "aliens" may be a manifestation of something else alltogether. Hopefull that makes sense.


Well, because the Christian narrative makes no sense whatsoever. Whereas, the existence of extraterrestrials with advanced technology is - while fantastic to imagine - squarely within the framework of the Universe as we know it. I get what you're saying, but just because the explanation for UFOs may be weird, doesn't mean any weird explanation is as good as another. I mean, people might as well be seeing the Tooth Fairy over Phoenix, if we're just going to speculate wildly. There's nothing wrong with a hypothesis that is bizarre, as long as it fits the known facts.

bmadccp wrote:
Again, I'm trying to keep the obvious religious overtones out of this because I would catch hell (so to speak) if I were to get to graphic in introducing the topic. I guess, another way to ask the question is this: Why is Lynn Marzulli laughed at but others who talk about UFO's taken seriously (within the field)?


To be fair though, I think there are other, non-Christian UFO researchers who also are not taken seriously.

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PostPosted: Sun Feb 28, 2010 2:57 am 
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I know this doesn't answer your question since I'm asking a question (or maybe it will if you think there might be a coverup somewhere). But wouldn't proof of alien life proove the Bible wrong since earth wouldn't be considered the only inhabited planet and that God created other life than just here? (I'm not being sarcastic, just wondering you guys opinions)


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PostPosted: Sun Feb 28, 2010 1:41 pm 
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Primus wrote:
I know this doesn't answer your question since I'm asking a question (or maybe it will if you think there might be a coverup somewhere). But wouldn't proof of alien life proove the Bible wrong since earth wouldn't be considered the only inhabited planet and that God created other life than just here? (I'm not being sarcastic, just wondering you guys opinions)



I don't think so, but I've always been one of those people who is guilty of picking and choosing bible "truths" because I'm not studied enough to be able to answer the tough questions. I'm not a big proponent of organized religion but I believe in the "good and evil" theory.

Religious institutions like the Catholic church have also said that its not out of the realm of possibility for aliens to exist. I think that alien life could easily be reconciled with religion/god. But that's me. I don't know what to think of the bible, I don't see it as the word of God like the religious institutions state. I see it as more of a guide to decent living, but thats for me. I don't try to judge others.


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PostPosted: Sun Feb 28, 2010 3:14 pm 
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Hoagland-esque

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Fazer wrote:
The devine is just an extremely advanced race on the scale between type 3 to type 5 civilizations. Why humans want to worship them is beyond me. But since we are still a type 0 and for reference, Startrek being a type 2, we are indeed probably just ants to them.

Perhaps some don't view it that way. Perhaps some, myself included are looking to some all encompassing Creator and we believe that in the past, and present "He" has communicated to us to make our lives or souls better. I'd like to think that we might be able to tell the difference between Diety and just another ET.


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PostPosted: Tue Mar 02, 2010 7:46 am 
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Hoagland-esque

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Primus wrote:
I know this doesn't answer your question since I'm asking a question (or maybe it will if you think there might be a coverup somewhere). But wouldn't proof of alien life proove the Bible wrong since earth wouldn't be considered the only inhabited planet and that God created other life than just here? (I'm not being sarcastic, just wondering you guys opinions)


I don't see that the discovery of extra terrestrial life would necessarily "prove the Bible wrong". There is really nothing in it that testifies that we are the ONLY life in the Universe. It addresses us and is considered God's message to us, and not necessarily to any other life elsewhere.

This idea has been addressed in Science Fiction by C.S. Lewis in his Perelandra series, and if I remember correctly, .. "A Case of Conscience" by James Blish. Probably in many other books as well but those two are the ones I remember.


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PostPosted: Thu Mar 04, 2010 9:32 pm 
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davidg8089 wrote:
Fazer wrote:
The devine is just an extremely advanced race on the scale between type 3 to type 5 civilizations. Why humans want to worship them is beyond me. But since we are still a type 0 and for reference, Startrek being a type 2, we are indeed probably just ants to them.

Perhaps some don't view it that way. Perhaps some, myself included are looking to some all encompassing Creator and we believe that in the past, and present "He" has communicated to us to make our lives or souls better. I'd like to think that we might be able to tell the difference between Diety and just another ET.

Depending how advanced the ET was, I doubt we could tell the difference. Our brains are hardwired to worship something.

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PostPosted: Sun Mar 07, 2010 1:41 pm 
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Fazer wrote:
davidg8089 wrote:
Fazer wrote:
The devine is just an extremely advanced race on the scale between type 3 to type 5 civilizations. Why humans want to worship them is beyond me. But since we are still a type 0 and for reference, Startrek being a type 2, we are indeed probably just ants to them.

Perhaps some don't view it that way. Perhaps some, myself included are looking to some all encompassing Creator and we believe that in the past, and present "He" has communicated to us to make our lives or souls better. I'd like to think that we might be able to tell the difference between Diety and just another ET.

Depending how advanced the ET was, I doubt we could tell the difference. Our brains are hardwired to worship something.



No, humans aren't hardwired to worship something, look at the sheer number of atheists in the world as testament. Humans are taught ro worship, it's perhaps one of the purest examples of social learning that we have. We ARE hardwired to question things, such as the reasons for own existence however and this can bring individuals to many different conclusions, but these conclusions are parsed throught the filters of our existing belief systems. The real question is: whould I have posed the same question (UFO's & God) if I hadn't been raised as a Christian?

Good discussion


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PostPosted: Tue Mar 09, 2010 10:01 pm 
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The athiests I know have had to be deprogrammed. They were brainwashed at an early age and had to work hard to re-wire their brains.

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When the mob governs, man is ruled by ignorance; when the church governs, he is ruled by superstition; and when the state governs, he is ruled by fear. http://countdowntoapocalypse.com/


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PostPosted: Sat Mar 13, 2010 7:08 pm 
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Hoagland-esque

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Fazer wrote:
The athiests I know have had to be deprogrammed. They were brainwashed at an early age and had to work hard to re-wire their brains.


You make it sound as if their previous beliefs were some sort of defect that had to be fixed. I'm sure others end up being annoyed by that attitude as much as I do.


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PostPosted: Tue Mar 16, 2010 8:55 pm 
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davidg8089 wrote:
Fazer wrote:
The athiests I know have had to be deprogrammed. They were brainwashed at an early age and had to work hard to re-wire their brains.


You make it sound as if their previous beliefs were some sort of defect that had to be fixed. I'm sure others end up being annoyed by that attitude as much as I do.

Who likes to be brainwashed?

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